Input: Hickory Branch

I like the idea of a powerful CE leader moving in and uniting various regional evil factions (orcs, giants, monstrous humanoids, etc.) along with some summoned fiends, filling the power vacuum left by the temple. I'm thinking that Humongous should be a half-fiend. Maybe there could be hints of this as the players are exploring the temple and moathouse, like random encounters with orc scouts.

On the other hand, a high power caster as a leader could justify bringing in mass numbers of troops from out of the region. In addition, he could conceivably be scrying upon the activities in the temple, and that would be a good opportunity to drop hints about this.

Yet another option that could be interesting is drow. I don't recall any drow in TOEE, but I would imagine that drow are doable (black skinned, white haired elves with spell resistance?). Maybe the cave opens to the underdark?

One problem with giving the HB orcs improved equipment rather than class levels is that they remain about as vulnerable to spells as they were unbuffed. I don't really see a problem with giving the orcs class levels other than realism (where did all the orcs with class levels come from and why haven't they conquered the area yet?), but that's going to be a problem regardless of what we do.

 

Have you played the Moathouse Respawn and/or Verbobonc?

One thing I think should not be changed is the Orc Rundors. For purely non-game reasons they are supposed to be stupid, weak, and irritating but not really threatening. Maybe they could be left as-is to supply fighters with suitable fodder for Great Cleave/Whirlwind attack scenarios?

 

I played an early Co8 prior to any NC (5-ish I am guessing), and I have done most of the Moathouse Respawn... I guess I know what is in the remaining area.

 

LOL, oops.

I guess this sorta turned into an accidental spoiler thread, sorry 'bout that. :censored:

 

One major problem with moving everything to post-game is that new versions have never been compatible with the older saves forcing you to run through the ENTIRE game just to get to them. ToEE is fun, but not THAT fun with just the base content.

If someone doesn't want to do the new content, nothing is forcing them (its all behind a wall anyways) and they could just use the non-NC version

 

How about a Nerullian cult, drawn to the area by all the recent death which intends to animate all the corpses and begin a campaign of terror on Nulb and Hommlet in an attempt to vie for control over the region from the Hextor and Temple forces.

 

BLASPHEMY! But seriously, once all of the new content (except Welkwood Bog) is made post-Zuggtmoy, it would be logical for the Circle of Eight modders to add a facility in the game to allow a player to choose to skip the vanilla content so that the player can start a new game at the post-Zuggtmoy stage of the game, with characters that are of sufficiently high enough level to be able to cope with the new content, and starting with enough gold to be able to purchase enough weapons, armour, and other equipment from the NPC vendors in the game to be able to cope with the new content.

I am currently clearing out Hickory Branch at the moment and I have to say that Hickory Branch is PERFECT the way that it is at the moment! I love the barbarian raging orcs, and I have always loved the combat against the Orc Trainer and his wolf- pack! But I do realize that all of the new content (except Welkwood Bog) NEEDS to be placed post-Zuggtmoy so that the Temple of Elemental Evil doesn't become a cakewalk due to the player's characters being 2 to 3 levels higher than the Temple encounters were designed for.

The beauty of third edition Dungeons & Dragons is that monsters are allowed to have class levels. This isn't unrealistic or cheating, it's how third edition D&D is meant to work. Monsters have just as much right to accumulate class levels as the player's characters do. There's no reason why Lord Hungous couldn't become a level 20 barbarian in Hickory Branch 2.0 (in fact, I hope that's what the Co8 team end up making him).

 

I would have thought the first upgrade would be getting the mithril plate armour out of the chest and putting it on Hungous (it counts as medium armour)

As double weapons don't work change Hungous from Bar6/Ranger6 to Bar6/Fighter8 with weapon specialisation, greater weapon focus, combat expertise and improved trip

perhaps improved critical as well if progression is
Bar4Fighter7
Bar4Fighter8
Bar5Fighter8
Bar6Fighter8

Still has move 30 - more than enough in confined space in cave.

 

As of late, I've become a bit fascinated with the idea of some monsters having treasure inside them.
Case in Point: The really big Giant Frog at emridys run had swallowed what appears to be an elven hero, with his gear still lodged in the beast's gullet. Would be interesting to see more of those.
For instance, the giant dire bear could have the weapons and armor of several adventurers lodged within his belly, as Hungeous is fond of using the beastie as a way of executing undesireables.
Examples: Blue Elven Chain, Magic Royal Armor, some magic gloves and boots, a few magic rings and necklaces, and perhaps a magic heavy flail and a magic longsword and shortsword.
Would be a great incentive to fight a single dire bear and/or hydra plus handlers.

Also, I would suggest giving hungeous and his top aides (Krunch, the Shaman, the Wizard, and the two soldiers with him) better equipment, maybe some of it looted from dead heroes that attacked them. For instance, Hungeous wears +1 Mithril Armor and his badass Orc Axe (also a fan of giving him a different weapon, or at least making the double axe a little better), Krunch wears +2 Adamantium Plate and carries a +1 Tower Shield and a +1 Flaming Hammer, the Shaman carries a +1 Unholy Heavy Mace and +1 Troll Armor and a +2 Orc Shield, while the Wizard wields a +2 Ice Heavy Crossbow. Meanwhile the Orc Soldiers wear masterwork fine chain mail, darkwood bucklers, and +1 Longbows.

Stuff like that would make for an interesting upgraded battle. They took on a ton of good heroes and bested them.

I'd also like to see perhaps an Orc or two as part of an elite guard outside Hungeous' cave led by the Half Orc Murderer, an upgraded Orc Sergeant, and an Orc Shaman.
Their character levels could be:
Murderer: Barbarian 2/ Rogue 10
Orc Sergeant: Barbarian 5/Fighter 5
Orc Shaman: ClericX ? I guess they use cleric
Elite Orc Guards: Barbarian 10

The Armament:
Murderer- Keen Heavy Saber+1, Keen Shortsword +1, +2 Barbarian Armor or +2 Marauder Armor
Ssergeant- +1 Falchion, +1 Black Plate
Orc Shaman- +1 Heavy Mace, Troll Armor
Elite Orc Guards- +1 Orc Double Axes - Or Masterwork Orc Double Axes, Troll Armor

Beyond that, I'd say keep most of the mobs as higher level but normal gear, etc. All except notable characters of course. And I see no reason for monsters like Orcs to have character levels. If it makes them more badass, I'm all for it.

Also, that Orc Wolf Trainer, love the chain and the barbarian armor. Make the Chain Flaming, and the Armor masterwork, or make it all masterwork and upgrade his character a bit, and make the wolves all a bit tougher. I'd even go so far as to say give him something, an item such as his armor, that gives damage resistance.

What type of stat changes do Orcs get in TOEE? Same as Half Orcs or something else entirely?

 

Here's an idea for Humongous: make him a Cleric of Gruumsh (domains War and Strength) with a Longspear. If you want it to be a suitable boss battle for APL 11-12, you'll want something like EL 14-15, which puts him and the guys somewhere around level 11 or 12. If he is at least Clr11, he can cast Divine Power, Righteous Might, Quickened Divine Favor and Quickened Shield of Faith. With two rounds of buffing, he is pretty terrifying.

Suppose you went with Clr12 (which improves Divine Favor and Shield of Faith a bit), this is the effect of those spells:
*Righteous Might (Large size, +8 Str, +4 Con, +3 AC, DR 10/Evil)
*Quickened Shield of Faith (+4 Deflection to AC)
*Divine Power (BAB equal to a Fighter of the same level, +1 hp per level, +6 Str)
*Quickened Divine Favor (+4 Luck to hit and damage)

I think he will have an attack bonus in the ballpark of +30/+25/+20, damage of about 2d6+24 (+2d6 vs good), reach of 20 ft to cover most of the cave, an AC of about 30, and HP of about 125. If he takes Lightning Reflexes to shore up his weakest save, his saves will probably be about: F+12, R+8, W+13, and higher if you give a cloak of resistance.

His biggest vulnerability will be a couple of well-placed Dispel Magics, but if you give him an archer ally that readies to disrupt spells it might be tough to strip him of his buffs.

You could tie which buffs he has pre-casted to the time constraint: if the players have to hack their way through the barrier, he should have plenty of time to buff. You could also do Eruthnyl instead of Gruumsh if you wanted a more natural fit for the amassing of different types of evil humanoids, in which case you would probably change the weapon.

I don't know if TOEE has an uber-tank cleric encounter yet, but this would be a good place to show one off.

 

Intelligent monsters (int 3+) can.

 

Hmm. Go here, fight these monsters as an original theme? Played HB 1.0 back in the day, the Minotaur seemed much tougher vs party level back then. I thought he actually got scaled down to match the expected party level during the creation or shortly after the implementation of HB 2.0. Could be my perceptions have changed.

Need to find some big old bad arse snakes from somewhere. Bigger and badder. Electric air breathing eels?

Oh, and the dire bear thing, at least give him walls so the party has to actually enter his pit/barn/cage (and attack range) to kill him. Currently just practice for tanks and such to switch to blunt ranged weapons like slings for some of the upcoming slimes/gels/oozes.

Spitballing fwiw:
-Maybe another trapped pet monster such as the previously mentioned hydra or something even bigger and badder kept by Hungous in his cave? Pretty sure he's not a fan of personal hygene and kinda likes bad smells.

-Pet dragon anyone? Arthur's dad mananged to capture one on the BBC 's Merlin and chain it under his castle. More dragons are always good.

-The stone door to the cave is magical and actually morphs into a Large (or Hungous?) Earth elemental? Some of the cast of monsters from the Earth node? Is there such a thing as an earth mephit? Would require a significantly better mage/witch/elementalist on site though for control, I think.

-Hungous is ridiculously intelligent for a Half Orc and has risen from the ranks to be both the Orc Commander and that elemental mage? Smart enough to not draw too much attention from the authorities to his bandit paradise by being too greedy? Preys on travellers mostly to make a living and keep the peace among the young but unusually well trained orcs under his command? Thinks he's living the good life and wants to keep it that way?

-Hungous has bugbear fetish and has a Harem of Boonthags of varying classes and abilities in his Cave with him. Buffed up to provide a challenge 11-12th level characters?

All I got without being even more ridiculous :shrug:

 

Personally, I really like HB just the way it is. :Being_a_s

If the need to improve upon it is that poignant, I would think maybe leveling up a few of the foes and improving their equipment should suffice.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say HB is, as it stands, a freaking masterpiece.

 

I am in two minds about whether or not the new content (excluding Welkwood Bog) should be changed to become post-Zuggtmoy game content. On the one hand, doing Hickory Branch and the Arena of Heroes before going to The Temple of Elemental Evil does make The Temple of Elemental Evil too easy (possibly with the exception of the brigand ambush in the broken tower, and possibly the reactive Water Temple and reactive Fire Temple as well) (but game difficulty is highly dependent on whether you play with uber PCs decked out with the best crafted items, or whether you play with a lot of NPCs and don't do any item crafting), but then the player is free to do The Temple of Elemental Evil first and do Hickory Branch and the Arena of Heroes later (which would then probably make Hickory Branch and the Arena of Heroes too easy), or possibly do a mix of some parts of Hickory Branch and some parts of the Arena of Heroes and some parts of The Temple of Elemental Evil before completing any of these areas fully.

On the other hand, Hickory Branch is PERFECT just the way that it is at the moment and I don't want it to change at all (with the exception of the Dire Bear, which I wish was positioned outside the pit so that it could at least fight back)! I don't know how much the Hickory Branch mod has changed since it was first included in The Circle of Eight Modpack, but I wonder whether Krunch would mind if his masterpiece mod was modified by other people.

If the new content wasn't changed to occur post-Zuggtmoy, then it would be up to the player to decide what parts of the game he/she ends up doing, knowing that if the player does some parts of or all of Hickory Branch and some parts of or all of the Arena of Heroes before entering The Temple of Elemental Evil, then the player would probably want to skip a lot of the encounters in The Temple of Elemental Evil because they would become too easy. I don't enjoy clearing out most of The Temple of Elemental Evil anyway - most parts of the dungeon maps are labyrinthine and tedious and all the same ugly brown colour and styling, and I feel major claustrophobia when dungeon-delving in The Temple of Elemental Evil, whereas clearing out Hickory Branch and the Arena of Heroes are fun because they are outdoors and there is considerable variety in encounters on those maps.