Fallout, Facebook, and the Evils of Social Media

You seem to ignore the truth, which is, in this case, supported by declarations of entry of baltic republics into the Soviet union:

Here are the Russian names for them, I am sure that machine translation will allow you to find them in your own language, or in English.

Декларация Народного Сейма Латвии о вхождении Латвии в состав СССР, 21.07.1940. // Полпреды сообщают… — М., Международные отношения, 1990 — стр. 476—478

Декларация Государственной думы Эстонии о вступлении Эстонии в состав СССР, 22.07.1940. // Полпреды сообщают… — М., Международные отношения, 1990 — стр. 484—485

Декларация Народного Сейма Литвы о вхождении Литвы в состав СССР, 21.07.1940 // Полпреды сообщают… — М., Международные отношения, 1990 — стр. 480—481

These declarations were made by parliaments of the Baltic Republics, thus it is not an ANNEXATION, because "annexation" is implied to be unilateral from the side of the stronger of the mergimg entities, and these documents prove that Baltic states ASKED to join.

As for the "Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact" and its "secret protocols", it defined "zones of interests" not "zones to be occupied".

That "Russian-speaking minority" is not such a minority, actually, but that's irrelevant.
What is relevant - those people were citizens of the Baltic States (because they were citizens of USSR) and then they were suddenly stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity. General rule is that the law should not be retroactive, right? They are not Russia's citiziens, they have "non-citizen" passports of the Baltic States.

Just a side note - Russian citizienship can be obtained by 1) having at least one parent who is citizen of Russia; 2) being born on the territory of Russia; 3) applying for citizenship, basic knowledge of the Russian language is required (I do not know if local language knowledge may be a substitute). And there is also a special program for former Soviet citizens.

But you know that your future president will not be the real power, right? Also it is quite funny that all three Baltic states had AMERICANS as their presidents (yep, those, who fled to USA as children, and only returned to sit in a big chair).

Being a member of a Communist party or a Communist State Security Agency does not mean one committed "war crimes and crimes against humanity". So, if any "intereuropean" laws prosecute people for being Communists, it is quite sad.
Even the members of NSDAP were prosecuted (after the end of the war) only if they were found guilty of real crimes by court. I've read Nürnberg process materials, they are quite detailed, every SS sergeant (Scharführer) found guilty had several witnesses and documents to prove he is guilty indeed. That was not some Lynch court.

I have shown that claims of a "bloody soviet communist regime killing millions of people" contradict reality, what else can I show? In this case there is no need for faith or beleivement, it is just numbers and sane assumptions.

 

"Brothers in Arms" was meant as irony. It's a sad, but not rare, state of affairs when governments decide they need to switch sides in a war.

If you give it some thought, you may realize that you often have more in common with the poor son of a bitch on the other side of the enemy lines than you do with someone in your own government.

 

I think Necro would enjoy this thread so much...

Hugs for everyone.

:hug: :hug: :hug:

 

Yep. Like those declarations were not puppeteered by the Kremlin… Like the puppet government of Terijoki which the soviets established during the winter war to “negotiate” with. Hardly a truth, more like propaganda.

Actually the translation machines do not work with Finnish. Along with the Bask (and the Finnish dialects called Estonian, Karelian, Inkeroinen etc) it is the only non Indo-European that is still spoken. What differs it from Indo-European languages is that is a synthetic language as the Indo-European languages are analytic. In that respect Finnish have more in common with Navajo than with German or English. Shortly you will need six words in English to say “there is someone in the house” and only three in Finnish: “joku on talossa”. My favorite example of the nature of a synthetic language is this: hääyöaie. One word that translates as: “the intention of the wedding night”. : ) Needles to say that language this flexible cannot be programmed in to a translation machine. Just try to translate: ”onpahan taas hauska kokeilla toimiiko nämä kääntökoneet oikeasti” with such a machine… (It says: it is always such fun to try whether these translation mahcines work)

When I googled Декларация Народного Сейма Латвии о вхождении Латвии в состав I got some page from Wikipedia and when I changed the language to English I found this: “In the summer of 1940, through intimidation and the presence of the Red Army, the Baltic governments were compelled to resign. Under Soviet surveillance, new governments of Communists and fellow travelers arranged rigged elections.” Not to say that I trust the Wikipedia.

And it was just a historical anomaly that these “zones of interest” (apart of Finland) where rather shortly occupied?

Actually when the USSR seized to exist no-one it Baltic region had any citizenship of any country. After the (re)finding of the Baltic states, of course most of their inhabitants were granted the citizenship of the new(/re)born states. Unfortunately the former soviet occupiers did not qualified as citizens, at least without proper language skills. Too bad for them. What comes to retroactive, you tread on the moral lowlands. Ban of retroactive laws never hindered the soviets to prosecute the entire wartime government of Finland for the crime of warring and solicitation of such a war against the soviets. Needles to say neither of such actions were crimes in Finland.

Curious. One will be granted Finnish citizenship if 1). One is born in Finland or on any ground considered as Finnish (plane, ship, embassy) and the mother wills no other citizenship. 2). One is born beyond the borders of Finland to a mother and/or father with Finnish citizenship, and neither of the parents objects. 3.) One have resided legally over five years in Finland and have adequate language skills. 4.) One has a strong personal connection to Finland (one has been married over five years with a Finnish citizen and/or have children whit one etc.). 5.) One can prove heritage to any previously Finnish (before soviet occupation) municipality or Finnish tribe (Karelian, Vienan Karelian, Inkeroinen…) from such area. 6.) One or one’s spouse has fought as a soldier in Finnish army during the years 1939-1945. Last two are not considered as immigrants applying for citizenship, citizens returning. They are granted immediately granted the same social and medical welfares as a born citizens. Something to be proud of.

Well I know that our next president is nothing but a rose on the wall, our last (corrupt) government (and our current one is even worse) stripped our president from any actual power. It is somewhat understandable that the current Baltic presidents (and the polish?) are Americans, since they are either deflectors or their inheritants. Not like the soviets would stand such dissidents during their reign?

Sad or not even Rossija have chosen to join the European Council and has ratified its declarations of human rights (thus abolishing the death penalty etc.). Unlike such barbaric states like Niger, Saudi-Arabia, Israel and the US of A which have never even joined the UN resolution of children’s rights. I guess those must be the safe havens for pedophiles.

Nürnberg was nothing but a puppet court, something where the allies kicked those who were already down. I do not excuse the atrocities committed by the Axis, but I detest the lack of responsibility that the Allies took from their atrocities. That just sickens me. The Nazis were not the only ones with their concentration camps, just ask the Yanks what they did with their Japanese population… Not to even mention what soviets did in Katyn, or the carpet bombings of Dresden and Danzig. What about the hundred thousand civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima? What about Armi Hillevi Metsäpelto age 7 who was the first to die when the soviets bombed Helsinki 30.11.1939? Killing innocent civilians was and is a war crime, a crime against humanity. Yet none from the allied side ever had to reap the consequences, apart from the captain of Enola Gay who had the decency to take his own life, a small token but yet so much for those hundred thousand. Do not speak me about the Nürnberg without lamentation about the atrocities committed by your own people, you son of butchers, or you will only foster those prejudices my mother thought to me: a ryssä is a ryssä even if you fry it in a pan, better just to shoot at sight…

Believe in whatever makes you sleep better…

Brothers in Arms were my words, you spoke of allies. To me the difference is meaningless. The man next to me is all I need to comprehend; to him my loyalty is unquestionable. What comes to the ill decisions ones government does, one has always the possibility of choice. Like Larry Alan Thorne Major, United States Army (Törni, Lauri Allan) (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/larry-thorne.htm). He fought the soviets in our ranks hard enough to earn the Mannerheim Cross (not even nearly comparable with Medal of Honor, nor even with the Cross of Iron, only 191 were ever granted, and all regardless of rank), when we fell he joined the Waffen SS. Afterwards was captured not by Russian communists but domestic and put to jail. Escaped and fled to US. Fought in Korea and Nam, went MIA in 1964. Americunts left him and his squad to rot in the jungle. His nephew and their expedition found what was left of him and his companions in 2003. The graveyard of Heroes on Hietaniemi Helsinki is one short, since Lauri was buried in Arlington.

Shortly: no matter what, a soldier must follow his conscience. Those who hide behind orders of others find only the noose of Nürnberg. Right?

 

When there is no proof, you say "There is no proof!"- when there is some proof (contrary to your position), you say:"Rigged proof!".
Yes, there was a change in those goverments, and they organised elections, and newly-elected parliaments voted for the declarations. BUT pacts which allowed Soviet bases on their territores were signed by PREVIOUS "democratically and honestly elected" governments, so even if they were changed, their policy was continued.

Since USSR was a federation, every republic had its own status as a state, thus their own citizenship (it is implied even for towns if you think about it). And, by the way, they exited USSR before it was dismantled, so there always was a continuity of government on their territory.
More importantly, I do not think there was a great change in ethnical composition of the Baltic States' population after they've joined USSR (except, maybe, deportation of Germans? I am not sure if it was there, but my memory is blurry on this fact), so many Russians in them were not "occupiers", but "natives". Thus, they are restricted in their rights only because of their ethnicity.

I do not see how these two parts are connected?

Puppet court - yes. but was it unjust? Hardly so.

Yes, I agree, that all crimes should be punished, it is just not possible, unfortunately.

On the matter of the Katyn incident, there is no proof it was done by Soviets. People there were killed with German weapons. Of course, if they were not captured by Soviets and left there, they would not be captured by Germans and killed. But, that would be IF during the Civil War in Russia Poland would not take pieces of Russian territory. Too many IFs, you see. But no proof, no matter what Yeltsin said or Putin says. By the way, the first to talk about "Soviets killed Poles in Katyn" was doctor Goebbels. This just says it all in my opinion.

You are mistaken, my parents are not butchers, they are engineers.

On the languages.

"There is someone in the house" can be said in Russian in several ways.
"В доме кто-то есть." 4 words.
"Кто-то в доме." 3 words.
So, difference is not clear from this example.
The "hääyöaie" is nice, but one can explain any one noun with many words, really.
Any more examples?

 

Allies are not Brothers in Arms? Are you quibbling?

If I understand correctly, the helicopter his mission was on was shot down in a mountainous region and not immediately "found". I understand this happens a lot on special forces missions. This was pointed out to me by a Special Forces Command Sergeant Major 25 years before Major Thorne's body was "found". I consider this repulsive, but my opinion doesn't matter. I have been informed, more than once, that this is part of the package these guys volunteer for.

Major Thorne served honorably and well in the United States Army for 15 years. He freely enlisted as a citizen of a foreign nation, he was NOT conscripted or forced to by circumstances. He served the United States until his death, not Finland. The choices he made are CLEAR. That Finland also chooses to honor a citizen of the United States is nice, but utterly irrelevant. He is buried in the right place.

 

Honestly, I do not recognize myself from that. With the case of “no proof” it is enough said. With the “rigged proof” I would be more careful. The main question being: “what qualifies as proof”? Yes, I admit that my point of view maybe tilted by my subjective opinions and the nagging voice of inside the back of my head saying “this is not the “truth”, latter voice being the result of the “official truth” thought me by our education system (which btw. is ranked as the best in the world by the PISA studies). BUT I try to overcome these shortcomings by questioning everything, which too often takes the form of the bane of all historians: utter disbelief disguised in the form of skepsis or cynicism. My apologies for this shortcoming of mine.

Even though I still do not think that the “proof” given by you qualifies as evidence in the scientific level. If there would be any translated studies about the subject, it would incline that the represented point of view is, if not verified, at least valid to be taken under consideration. But the lack of translations being spread around the academic sphere beyond the borders of Rossija, kinda reeks the scent of propaganda.

True those pacts were singed before the Soviet occupation, but what I have been told the occupation was the result of those pacts. Just like when Neville Chamberlain with his appeasement policy agreed to let Hitler to annex Austria and the Sudetenland, hoping that would satisfy the thirst of the beast, the Baltics thought that Stalin would have been satisfied with the territories already given, and there would be no need for war. Appeasement didn’t stop either of the dictators to take the rest by force. Finland refused any territorial claims and ended up with open war, at least we were never occupied, unlike those who believed in less warlike solutions…

Me no comprendo. The consept of federation is rather vague to me. What is the difference between federation and confederation? Like all the citizens of the different states of Federal Germany are not citizens of their home States, but citizens of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Just like the citizens of Texas are citizens of US (though they might prefer to be Texans rather than…)

I know I shouldn’t be referring to Wikipedia because of its unreliability, but still that gives the portion of ethnically Russian population in Estonia before the occupation app.rox. 8% (mainly orthodox dissidents i.e. “Old Believers” [que?]). And after the occupation 35%... So the 8% were actually welcomed and accepted by the natives, the rest were just plundering occupiers.

The connection should be clear, with all the irony included. When Rossija chose to become member of the European Counsil, it too had to ratify the European Convention on Human Rights along with all the nasty anticommunist inter-european laws. This meaning:

You should not condemn “European” countries for their persecution of said “communists”, hence your own government chose to participate such bias based treaty.

Göbbels was a genius what comes to propaganda, but that does not mean all he said was a lie. I thought that the current Soviet (ahem Russian) government has confessed their guilt for the Katyn? At least I remember the entire Polish regime flying to Russia to join some mutual ritual commemorate the victims of Katyn. Only to be killed in some mysterious plane crash, such historical irony. Anyways the Poles themselves state that (they actually made a movie about it) the killers were soviets and not Nazis. I am inclined to believe them. At least they have no interest to lie since their hater towards the former german and soviet occupiers are somewhat equal.

Military engineers I guess… Mine are medical doctors in the third generation.

Damn, I cannot read Cyrillic, is there any way to write Russian in roman alphabet?
What I failed to demonstrate here was the flexibility and lack of formal syntax of the Finnish language. You can say “joku on talossa, talossa on joku, joku tallossa on” etc. without changing the meaning of the sentence, unlike in English were the altering the order of words will also alter the meaning of the sentence, like “someone is in the house, is someone in the house”. And that the prepositions are embedded in the words themselves, like saying “from my house to your house” translates to “talostani taloosi” while the word “talo” means the house and the rest of the word dictates what happens and from what to where. This is something that the translation machines cannot mimic.
What comes to the word “hääyöaie” I failed to make my point. It is a combination of three words: häät (wedding) yö (night) aie (intention) put together forming a new word with entirely different meaning that with those three words written separately. Like the following: talviyö (winter night) is not the same as talven yö, or talvinen yö. (talvi = winter, yö = night). All of the three refer to wintery night but have difference in degree and in emphasis of possession. Another thing that the translation machines cannot take into consideration: the words can be written together or separately altering the meaning of the entire sentence.

Ps. Is Russia a (or a the Slavic languages in general) synthetic language or an analytic one?
Pss. Forgot to mention that the only synthetic and Indo-European languages are the Celtic dialects (Gaeilge, Cymraeg, Gàidhlig etc.).

Must be something lost in translation. Are the concepts “Ally” and “brother in arms” synonyms in English? There is a clear and distinct difference of these concepts in Finnish.

The notion escapes the limits of my understanding. In Finnish military the doctrine of “never leave a brother behind, no matter how great pains that might take” has always played a significant role. There are still numerous expeditions searching for the few fallen from WWII that are yet to be found. I think this doctrine has been nowadays adopted by most militaries, including those of the US.

True. Captain Törni was an US citizen and served under a foreign flag, thus it is only right and proper that his last resting place is found from the soil of the others. But he was born and raised as a Finn and thus always considered as one of us, no matter where and for what he fell. The grave place of Törni in Hietaniemi is still vacant, waiting for his unlikely return and to remind us forever that one of us is missing. Maybe one day I am able to travel to Arlington to visit the one still lost.

 

To be honest, I myself think this "proof" I've provided is suspicious, but I have to act according to my Soviet-implanted zombie programming.

Exactly.

Maybe so, maybe they made a "slight mistake" by counting pre-war population in pre-war borders and after-war population in after-war borders (or even later, as far as I know territories of many Soviet republics were increased at the expence of Russian Federative Republic Territories, thus Russian population was added without "occupying" anything.)

We are talking about different laws it seems.
I am not aware of any international law prosecuting communists in Russia.
And the only Russian law about this is the one prohibiting the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (but not any other, so we have Com.Party of Russian Federation)

Russian government will confess anything if this diminishes Soviet era.

You can do this in Russian too.

I do not know, I just speak

[EDIT]
But WIKIPEDIA knows...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Русский

"Russian has preserved an Indo-European synthetic-inflectional structure, although considerable levelling has taken place."

 

so what do you guys think about germany and north europe going nazi racist again?

 

Actually that is plausible. Still I quoted the Wikipedia which is an unreliable source an sich, so the mere numbers can be figments of some author’s imagination. Since the Soviets constructed numerous military bases in the Baltic area it is only logical to assume that they brought also military personnel to run those facilities. After the collapse of the soviet system it is also only logical to assume that a portion of those military personnel (especially those who had married with the locals and/or had families) chose to stay. That would cause at least some increase in ranks of Russian speaking population. No?

No we are not, though I used the wrong term: “ratified”. Russia did sign the mentioned treaty, but the only part they ever ratified was the abolishment of death penalty. This was, in turn, enough for the EU to accept Russian plea for membership of the European Council. Thus the inter-European laws are not ratified and enforced in Russia, and the EU is content with the status quo, at least as long the gas and oil keeps flowing. I guess that makes both our governments’ hypocrite.

Sad.

Hmm. Didn’t know that. Well Wikipedia seems to have a better example of the synthetic nature of Finnish language that I came up with:
istahtaisinkohan = "I wonder if I should sit down for a while"
Although, in my opinion that is an incorrect translation. I would translate it as: “I wonder whether I should sit down or not”.

If that is the only way to stop or at least even hinder the ever escalating legal and illegal immigration from the (mainly) Islamic countries, I am all for it. We are and have been a Christian nation for a long time. Introducing an ever increasing population of (not different but) opposing religion is bound to cause conflicts and civil unrest. As the immigrants are mainly illiterate and uneducated they will be only lifelong strain for our economy and tax payers. Our comprehensive welfare system was designed to be a safety net for the unfortunate citizens to bounce back to be productive members of the nation, not for lazy masses to leech upon. So Hail brothers, I’m with you. ./

 

you hail neo nazis who burn people in their sleep? damn these penissless sons of bitches have far deeper influence than i thought.

its not immigrants (which is not such a high rate as scary inable news agencies show it to be) that take your tax money. its corporates and companies and bloody rich people that live across oceans and have infinite money who are sucking your income away. funny though these type of views were exactly how germany started with jewish holocaust. sometimes i think nobody actually disliked nazis. they were just scared of the allied armies.

 

Correction, Kio, they were just scared of the Red Army.

 

To my knowledge there has been no such incident in the entire EU where neo-Nazi’s had burn anyone in while sleeping. Actually violent crimes connected to the so-called neo-Nazi’s are miniscule. The violent crimes committed by the so-called “anti-fascists” (i.e. drunken unemployed punk’s) are far more numerous. Not a single demonstration held by the “neo-Nazis” have ever caused any problems, apart from the riots machinated by the opposing anarchists. The extreme left is far more dangerous to our society than the far right.

One third of the entire prison population of rapist’s in Finland are immigrant, and the entire immigrant population is only 4,7 %. i.e All of the imprisoned immigrant rapists are re-peated offenders, otherwise their number should be closer to their actual proposition of the population i.e 4,7 %.

p.s. Is kio11 the official Troll in C08?

 

I thought YOU were!

Wait! Isn't THIS a troll post? :yikes:

 

well then if you only hd watched NORMAL news and not whatever youre following, youd realise that in germany they actually burn turks and jews in their sleep. they shoot them too in their spare time. and if you include moscow in europe then the statistic will significantly increese, as well as the diversity of the victims backgrounds.

i personally never heard about any extreme leftist killing 60 teenagers becouse he was brainwashed by, for example, stalins ideas from BC.

and how many people live in finland anyway? 0.001 people per m2? that changes alot of things about statistics about the percentage of immigrants and the focus area of the crimes.

and probably that crime is handled and kept under and above a certain percentage by the rightist politicians anyway.

and im the unofficial troll