Request for opinions about falling paladins

Gaer wrote: “My general approach to alignment is quite simple: I don't like to use it to prevent players from pursuing quests. Why should that be my job? You should decide what's good or evil and consistent or inconsistent in your game, not me. Which is not to say that there won't be consequences for some of the things you do ...

As for paladins falling, specifically, that whole business is just meh to me - hardly worth the effort. Unless you can attach some greater significance to it, just getting a ZOMG MY PALLY HAS FALLEN NOW I MUST PAY TO BRING HIM BACK is rather underwhelming. I prefer to try to make stuff as engrossing and compelling as possible, not just a series of petty irritants.”

I put some serious thinking on with the general question about paladins. So the following is what I came up and I would appreciate hearing any and all opinions about it. Even in the game manual of the original TOEE there is clear warning that including a paladin in one’s group will have a significant effect in what one can and cannot do in the game.

Yet in my opinion this was poorly executed in the original game. One’s paladin would fall from grace because of petty things such as group member joining a drinking contest or evil characters joining one’s group. (How in ragnarök are evil characters supposed to be even able to join in with good aligned groups or vice versa?).

My humble plea is to ask the moderatos to enhance the future mods so that paladins will fall in situations that are really against their lawful good characters, such as committing murder or robbery. In my opinion this would bring more depth and plausibility in the game. Please let your opinion be heard!

 

Are you familiar with how the Paladin class works in RAW?

 

I am not familiar with the consept "RAW".

 

"RAW" stands for "rules as written," as in the original source books. Although it typically has a more sarcastic connotation.

AD&D Paladins used to be held to a much higher standard. If they performed a chaotic act, they would fall and have to go seek atonement. If they actually performed an evil act, they would fall forever, with no atonement possible. In later editions of the rules, where Paladins lost their subclass mystique, this was softened. But it's an area that caused A LOT of "rules lawyer" debates. What exactly is an evil act? What is a chaotic act? Especially since the game takes place in a fantasy setting. ie "don't ogres have families too?"

Having said that, my 2 cents would be that the game handles it as it should. A computer game is more arbitrary than pencil and paper human interaction, so it has more of a on/off aspect without worrying about it too much.

 

On a personal note, I dont think theres much that needs to be changed regarding paladins falling. You can pretty much afford doing those quests later on when you have more than enough to pay for atonements. It could definetly be worse

I do agree, it doesnt make sense for a paladin to fall due to someone else participating in a drinking contest. If its the paladin who is actually participating, okay. Even so, its not like you are missing much by not doing the contest

But then again, most instances where your paladin falls arent exactly massive deterrents. You can just leave it for when you have more coin to pay for Terjons scams...er, services

Your paladin can fall if you allow NPCs with Evil Aligment to join your party (Such as Turuko in Hommlet). IIRC, if your paladin is the one talking with an evil NPC who offers to join, they always refuse. But other party members can accept them and make your paladin fall

IMO, paladins are fine the way they are

 

I am not a native English speaker so the acronyms are and will be a puzzle to me.

I am familiar with the written rules, hence the thread. In my opinion the falling of paladins does not work as such. Excluding arguments such as “do ogres have families too” there are things that are unargumently evil such as accepting and carrying out assassination quests for personal gain (lodriss and scarlet brotherhood) which do not result falling from grace.

I disagree.

I agree, hence I would vote for Forgalz’s idea: “It would have greater significance attached if the Atonement spell were removed from the game ... or very, very well hidden. Or tied to some redemption quest.”

Doing an atonement quest for Terjon would be interesting alternative for petty cash.

My point exactly, makes no sense.

Unaware of that fact, I always use my true neutral bard to do the speaking. Thanks for the clarification.

btw. I am unfamiliar with the concept “IIRC” care to open that?

 

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

Read the section Code of Conduct.

Rules As Written, Paladins fall correctly in ToEE.

Since the spirit of the mod is to adhere as closely to the official rules as possible, no changes are needed.

 

Ah. I just meant something similar to what Bob posted above. He supplied the D20 Code of Conduct for which the game is based on. I'm just not sure, even if the system was revised, it would work in a computer game that has a set outcome vs the open environment that the pencil and paper RPG has. There are a couple of defined times that a Paladin can fall due to choices in the game. Would it require 3-4 different quests to get atonement? (the drinking atonement quest....the accept Temple quest, quest...pretty much just visiting Nulb requires that a Paladin take a shower...and so on) The focus would quickly become on the party Paladin vs other classes. The way it works now, atonement is mentioned for the Paladin, even if it's just a "pay as you go" system, but it's not a major focus.

I pretty much start off dual-classing all my characters anyway. If I use a Paladin, I start him off as a fighter (a squire, if you will) and then switch him to Pally at 2nd level after he has some battle experience-Welkwood is perfect for that. So when I do the drinking quest, it's not an issue. (just as an aside, I usually start Clerics of as monks to get the unarmored AC bonus, and Wizards/Sorcerers as rogues so it's all the better to "find and borrow" scrolls and such...) When I use a good party, I like to link them all under Heirounous, so I typically have a bunch of 1st level fighters and monks who share that in common, before they declare what their major is so to speak and pick their final class.

 

I don't quite see the content of this argument. Even if the ogre in question has a family, how would that make the paladin fallen? I mean, missing some small ogres on the first attempt is hardly an evil act. :scratchhe He'll get them eventually.

 

Only if it's a flesh wound....then the only truly good act would be to RUN AWAY....!

 

I'm in the camp that says that someone other than the paladin participating in a drinking contest shouldn't be a fall-worthy offense. I know the game can't represent this, but conceivably, the paladin could be up stairs praying or something, while some other dude in his party drinks (they're at an inn, probably with a room, after all), and therefore the paladin falls. It's rather nonsensical.

Accepting evil characters in your party, I can agree with a fall. That's just (more or less) the rules, and the paladin would ideally object regardless of who's talking, but that sort of thing isn't implemented. Paladins even get at-will detect evil, presumably for this reason. Of course, that doesn't work well, either.

I can't recall what else causes falls, but participating in an assassination is likely worthy, and should be added if the in-game ones don't already do that.

Quests for atonement are a nice idea, too, although I don't know how doable they are. The spell description actually says that prospective clerics/druids usually require them. Atonement is actually an expensive spell to cast, as it requires the cleric to pay 500 experience if the recipient's action was intentional. So, perhaps not the "my companion participated in a drinking game" atonement. But most other atonements would be sucking up Terjon's experience, and that's not the sort of thing he'd just hand out to anyone willing to pay. Of course, handling this well in a computer game is probably difficult. It wouldn't be ridiculous for you to get a certain number of atonements for the game before Terjon decides, "you're not worth vouching for anymore."

 

Actually that was kind of my little idea, it certainly wasn't my intention to suggest that a gazillion of redemption quests be implemented. I would even go further and say, there should be a (very) limited number of high level clerics who can be convinced to cast Atonement, and each requires a little quest in exchange (and also lectures the character on the Code of Conduct, so that players who don't read the manual get another chance to figure out what's going on.) If you come back fallen a second time, they'll simply refuse to do anything for you.

The first cleric could obviously be Terjon. You'd really want someone in Hommlet accessible at level 2-4, mostly because of the slightly non-obvious drinking contest thing. Then one in Nulb ... maybe Mother Screngg, you'd have to unlock her as a cleric first, and then you could ask her, already more involved. Finally, maybe one guy in Verbobonc. That gives you three chances nicely distributed over the game.

With the three cleric plan, one could probably design quests for 4th, 8th, and 16th level, respectively. An intriguing aspect of this system would also be that the paladin, while trying to find a cleric and doing the redemption quest, will maybe miss a level-up, or more than one, because he cannot level as paladin while fallen or after he took another class (I hope he can't, at least he shouldn't be able to) so he has to suck it up and not level if he wants to remain paladin, which would be the *real* punishment for most players.

As for quests, hmm, maybe it's even possible to reuse existing content. For example, there is this ogre cave which belongs to a temple quest that isn't really accessible to a paladin party anyway because they wouldn't work for an evil priest. Couldn't they be sent to clean out the cave, for example? Could be the Screngg quest, as a temple spy she may have had an eye on that ogre group for some time. Use Emridy Meadows also as Terjon's redemption quest, that's two down already. And I understand there is a lot of empty space in Verbobonc, so maybe another little errand can fit in there somewhere.

Actually, reusing content that one can access in another way, too, is probably the way to do it. Designing content exclusively for fallen paladins seems a bit fruitless, even many paladins would never see it. So it should be generally quests that the clerics want done and hand out to interested parties anyway, only with a fallen paladin it's non-optional if they want to access the clerics Atonement spell - and they wouldn't get the normal reward, of course. (Another little poke for the player.)

And I want to highlight this once more

This would fit right in with this RAW movement here.

 

I had figured that as a Dwarven Paladin of Moradin, a drinking contest would not be against my paladins code. I was a bit surprised to see I was fallen after that.

 

Since Canoness Y’Day is in Nulb, she could be the second. And in Verbobonc there is already the chief cleric of Pelor who could be the third.

Third could be the monster bash for the cleric of Pelor, so I’ts all there.

All in all I would vote for your suggestions here. A little more depth and logic in the game.

 

The iron box on the table contains the
Orb of Golden Death. The Orb is a gold
sphere shaped to resemble a human skull
without its lower jaw. It radiates evil so
strongly that Paladins and Good clerics are
unable even to touch it (or even the box).
Anyone grasping the device gains certain
magical powers, and instantly knows how
to summon them forth from the Orb: detect
lie, know alignment, and poison. These
powers may be used without limit as long as
the Orb is held. The holder can also cause
the great throne in area 10 (of the Upper
Temple) to raise and lower. The user's Charisma
is affected, and other unique details
apply; see Appendix C for more details.



THE ORB OF GOLDEN DEATH
Artifact GP Sale Value: 75,000
This item (a.k.a. Yellowskull, Goldenskull,
or the Death Orb) is a powerful magic item
created by Zuggtmoy and luz. Because of its
nature and aura, no paladin will touch it
willingly, nor will any Good cleric; they feel
its immense innate Evil.

This are the only two references in the original ToEE adventure I could find. So they are not really related to falling paladins, no special rules.